ALIYAH SALMON

Aliyah: Okay so, I hardly use my computer. I've avoided Zoom for the entire pandemic. One zoom call and with video interviews. This might be my like, second or third one.

Nicole: I love that. I'm hyped about that for you because Zoom is just, well we know it's gonna be here for the rest of our lives.

Aliyah: It's just the pandemic, dude. It's kind of scary. Zoom University? lt makes me so nervous. I'm like, can you see my background? Like, are you guys looking at my friends? What?

Nicole” I saw a video of somebody giving a capstone presentation for a master's degree. She was very professionally dressed standing up and her cat started running across all the couches and leaped onto the curtains and then got stuck. And the cat was like “meow!” as she's giving her presentation and you see the roommate, like slink down in the corner and army crawl across the floor to rescue the cat. Like, that's my worst nightmare.

Aliyah: I would die. I would just like, close the computer.

Nicole: Like, we're done, I'm sorry, everyone. Goodbye.

Aliyah: Maybe next year,

Nicole: Maybe next year. Long story short, I'm so excited to interview you for your second video interview!

Aliyah: Excited to dive in!

Nicole: What's your story? You know, give us a little background of all the things - where you're from, how you got to Brooklyn, and what you're doing now?

Aliyah: My full name is Aliyah Salmon, spelled completely like the fish. I was born in Florida, Orlando specifically, and I spent most of my life in Florida. I think I've always been a creative person. My mother has always been really helpful in aiding my creative side. She bought me all the art supplies I ever wanted, and she put me in classes. My first experience with fiber arts was when I was maybe eight because my mom put me in a Michaels craft store demonstration class with a bunch of grandmas, I was the only little black girl there crocheting. She did stuff like that for me.  

I kind of always had some type of creative outlet. I used to dance. I spent a couple years dancing, and then I did gymnastics, and then I was like, “well, I'm going to do some music”. So I spent from sixth grade up until now playing upright bass and bass guitar. I was convinced it was going to do something with music up until I got into high school, I was in three music classes doing a lot on that front. I remember, in April of my sophomore year, I had one drawing that I spent so much time on, it was like a depression doodle I made in the middle of class. I just kept drawing from that day and I was like, “I don't think I want to do three band classes, I think I want to do something else.” So I went up to the art teacher and I was like, “Hey, I really want to come in junior year, but I don't really want to come in as a beginner.” She put me in the advanced class after I showed her some work, and from then on, I would say was my trajectory into being a visual artist. Everything up to that point, I just kind of considered a really fun hobby. Up until I had to start applying for college and I was applying to a couple of different places. I did not pay attention to jack shit in school. I was doodling, I was drawing on my hand, I was just not paying attention to anything other than drawing. And so I sent in my AP art portfolio and I was like, you know what, I'll use it to apply to art schools. I applied to Savannah College of Art and Design, because it was not far away from Florida. I never even toured the campus. I just showed the fuck up on the first day and was like, “alright, I'm just gonna do this.” I don't know, it was either art or going into law. This seemed like a lot more fun because I just knew I'd be drawing on every corner of every page if I did anything else. I scared my family, they're all Caribbean immigrants. I would say I'm the only person who's gone to college and had this American experience. My parents are both from different countries, my whole family's from Guyana, and Jamaica and other surrounding Caribbean areas. I think this was just different for them. My mother was always really supportive, and she really allowed me to believe this was possible. I just kind of went with it. I'm a couple years out, I'm like three years post grad. And I think it's just kind of worked out so far in the past year, specifically. I'm just gonna keep riding this train and keep going now that, you know, people seem to really have a newfound interest in my work. It's all very weird for me. But we're here, we're doing it. We're here. 

Nicole: We’re in Brooklyn, we're killing the game. Following dreams.

Aliyah: I moved here in 2018. I had a laughable amount of money. I didn't have a job here. I didn't have anything lined up other than my friend at the time, who was like, “just stay in my bedroom, just pay like half my rent or something, we'll just figure it out, and we'll move into a new apartment with my lease is up!” Of course, that friendship ended terribly. I had to make some moves and I ended up getting really lucky. I had a really supportive boyfriend at the time. We're coming up on our third year, and now I have a really nice, stable life compared to when I first came to New York. But shit was rough, dude, I was homeless for a couple months, technically living with my boyfriend in his small apartment in Bushwick with like, three other roommates. I really am appreciative now, because my creative practice has blossomed in the stability. Now that I have my little home in Brooklyn that I can really use to create whatever I want, my whole practice is different. And I've really been able to hone my skills as an artist in a different way than I have ever been able to post grad.

Nicole: Yeah, totally. Establishing yourself and getting comfortable. That's so important.

Aliyah: Comfort, I would say, is a very important element in my life and in my work. I think that's almost why I gravitate towards textile surfaces and soft, tactile materials. I think the balance of stability and a little bit of created chaos is the only thing that really helps me flourish. I'm very grateful every day for it.

Nicole: That's awesome. So you started off drawing...well it's actually funny that you mentioned that you went from dance but then you went to gymnastics and then you started playing music? We might have the exact same childhood.

Aliyah: Did your mom have dreams of becoming a dance mom or something too? 

Nicole:  I would definitely say so.

Aliyah:  I'm convinced that every person who puts your child in that many different things has that want or desire.

Nicole: “You are gonna be famous, sweetie!” 

Aliyah: You have to pay bills one way or another.

Nicole: I know, I know.

Aliyah: I'll be honest, not to toot my own horn, but I was acting in school plays. I had some leads in them, and I was singing. I was sure that my parents thought they were gonna capitalize off of me in some way in the future, based on my musical abilities in some way, shape or form. I think that they just kind of fed into that.

Nicole: Oh my god, your dog!

Aliyah: Yeah, his name is Ernie. 

Nicole: Hi Ernie!

Aliyah: [picks up Ernie and receives aggressive growls as she hugs him] I swear, he's not like a rabid dog. He just loves to growl. [laughs]

Nicole: That's really funny.

Aliyah: It's okay. It's fine. I still love him.

Nicole: He's still super cute. So you started drawing and then you kind of gravitated towards working with more physical material at Savannah? How would you describe your style as an artist?

Aliyah: That's the wildest question because I have no idea and I'm constantly trying to figure it out.  I think it's a symptom of working in so many different mediums all the time. I'm always picking up different materials and different tools and different things at all points. Now, I think that style is kind of reflective of what I'm working with rather than me having one cohesive style. It was a gut punch when you sent me the questions this morning, and you were like “in your portfolio, you use more recognizable objects, and with your rugs you use something else." I was like shit. I'm two different broads! I think I'm just naturally curious. I wanted to explore different ways of expressing myself outside of drawing. I had a really hard time working with drawings specifically. I'm blind in my left eye, so I can't really understand perspectives, dimensions, and I don't have the same spatial awareness, I guess, as somebody has two working eyeballs. Being a scientific illustrator, which was what I thought I wanted to do because I was always doing hyper realistic, colored pencil drawings, just wasn't going to work out for me. I just wanted to explore, and I wanted to do so many different things. I was kind of computer phobic--I really resisted Photoshop until I absolutely had to, and I wanted to do a lot of different things with my hands.

When I heard my school had a major called ‘fibers’, well, that was how I came up on textiles. My friend's girlfriend was having an open studio for her major and I was undeclared at that time, coming into the time where I had to pick a path the next semester. I went to her open studio and the building in the department is called The Fibers Department. I was like, “I don't know what the fuck this is. So I am just going to investigate.” And it was anything you can imagine under the textile umbrella, but not specifically fashion. It was super cool, because I originally took a sewing class and dropped out. I thought fashion would be cool in theory, but I didn't really want to do it. This seemed like a really nice compromise for me because I could draw, I could do things with my hands, but more importantly, I could be focused on color. It's a different way of expressing myself other than just drawing. I think with drawing, you have to have more of an end purpose, and more of an end result for what you're doing in some regards, at least professionally. No one's gonna pay you to do a scribble unless you're known for doing scribbles. And I wanted to do scribbles. I wanted to do fucking scribbles, and I wanted to do it in so many different ways.

Textiles gave me the ability to screen-print, it gave me the ability to crochet, it gave me the ability to weave, it gave me the ability to do whatever and call it art. It really helped redefine how I thought about myself as an artist, and what I wanted my art to be. Having the exposure of being around people who are working with natural dyes and using that as their medium, being around people who were using looms and doing giant tapestries...it just feels like a portal into a whole other world making textiles. Paint feels so static sometimes and I wanted something that moves and breathes, I want something that's reactive. I want something that lives you know, and the thought of creating work where you are responsible for every single stitch just sounds so batshit crazy, but it's so fun. It's the ultimate kind of control over your expression. It's slow, and it's intentional. It's the kind of thing you really have to sit there and think like, “what am I doing this for?” It's almost like meditation, depending on what you're doing in textiles. I just love it so much. 

Nicole: I love it so much. That's amazing. So you're clearly multi disciplinary, do you have a favorite medium that you like to work with?

Aliyah: It changes. Every year I gravitate towards something else. I don't really think I love one medium over the other, but it's kind of like different ways of communicating the same kind of idea. Rug making is cool, but I'm doing it right now because it's a faster way of expressing a textile idea, as opposed to weaving which takes a lot more time. I don't have a loom possible for what I want to do. This has just given me so much room to explore. It's given me more importantly, an outlet to just do something with color. I feel so liberated in rug making because I can create something just for the sake of making it, and it can be functional. Whereas a drawing only exists in that space as a drawing until you do something else to make it a final product.

Nicole: That makes perfect sense. I love what you said just a second ago about having different ways to communicate the same idea. I think it's interesting to think about different mediums as being different voices.

Aliyah: Yeah, each one of them has their own voice. In your questions, you guys asked me why I don't really have a lot more recognizable figures in rug making. I don't know, they're just different. I really, truly want to meld and mesh all of the different ways of making together if I can, but I think truthfully, some mediums will always lend itself to a certain kind of look for me that I want. Rug making for me is like an outlet for my color addiction. I want loud color somewhere physically in front of me. Being able to create that has been a different form of expression compared to when I'm collaging. I feel very intentional, very narrative, when I'm collaging. But I don't feel like I have to do that with my rugs. And I think being a Black artist, I feel like I have to really do a lot of narrative work because I do have a perspective and I have the want to do it. But sometimes, I just want to do something for the sake of doing it, for the sake of it being fun, for the sake of being vibrant. I feel as though as much as I have a lot to say and I have a lot to inform people on, sometimes I just want to fucking make! I also don't feel like it's my responsibility to change the world with every piece that I make, in the sense of having it be so grounded in narrative or in my more serious fine art. 

I'm planning a couple of pieces this year to mesh all the different mediums specifically, like beading and tufting together. The series of work is called "Wells Fargo Took My Lunch Money and Called Me a N*****". It's going to be a very contentious kind of thing. I'm hoping to bring them together and to really express myself fully in that way. For now, my rugs are almost like a fun, colorful playground for me to express myself as opposed to other ways of making and surface and textile art.

Nicole: When you're starting a piece what's your process? Where does the seed of inspiration come from? Is it always different? How long does it take for you to create certain pieces?

Aliyah: I don't really know how to properly describe where I source my inspiration because I feel as though I can take it from everything around me and absolutely nowhere. I'm constantly inspired by nothing at all. I don't want to say I pull my work out of my ass, but I pull it out of my ass. It's really all here. There's no one I really go to look and hype myself up on, and there's nothing that I've ever done to strike up my creativity. I think it's always kind of one idea after the next of what I want to do, but how much time do I have? It's hard because you really have to think, so I've done a lot more planning for my textile pieces than I've ever done in my life. I usually write down key words, I journal, I create lists. I think about it for two, three months before I do anything at all. I'm looking at the ceiling. I'm like, I don't know what color I should use. I don't know what I want this piece to say. I'm constantly throwing the ideas around for much longer than I would like to admit. I feel when I get to the piece itself, I just go straight into it because I've done a lot of mental planning. I only recently in my lifetime have embraced doing rough drafts and doing sketches. I used to just go straight in, and in my own arrogance, I assumed that would be enough. But I've really started to incorporate a lot more sketching and a lot more purposeful exercising before I go into any type of piece. A big piece especially like a narrative, I usually think, write, and maybe sketch. I play around with color more than anything. Then I go straight into it and hope for the best. I am not afraid of scrapping something right in the middle of it. I don't really feel attached enough to keep going if it's bad. I do a lot of revisions on the spot. I'm pretty cutthroat about it; I screw up a lot. I think the final result is always going to be a surprise to me because as much as I would like things to turn out exactly how I see it in my head, it's kind of just informed by what's going on and what material I'm using. Planning is 25% of the battle. The rest hangs in the middle of making.

Nicole: I think there's something to say though about you knowing your worth and saying, "No, I'll try again, time to scrap this".

Aliyah: It's honestly a crippling need for control in all aspects of what I'm doing (laughs). But really, it's debilitating sometimes. It's not something that I'm particularly proud of. I wish that I could just let myself make instead of letting what I think is my entire artistic practice hang in a sketch. I think it really isn't the best way to go about it. I'm trying to incorporate making bad art a lot more into my life and being okay with it instead of letting myself pretend that everything that I make has to be a masterpiece.

Nicole: I even noticed in your shop, you were like, “this beautiful gradient rainbow has a few stitching mistakes.” And I was like, “What? Where? This is so epic!” 

Aliyah:  Girl, if you interview any of my professors, they will all tell you that I have incredible ideas, design, and intention, but craftsmanship is never my strong suit. It’s my Achilles heel. The front will look amazing, but the way that I loom it, or the way that I tied it in the back is never really put together well. I always think I’m trying to conceal the fact that I'm so self conscious about it. It's one of those things that comes with just learning and doing, so I'm just trying to do more and hope that I get it together along the way. But I’m glad that it’s not coming off like that.

Nicole: No, I think we as creatives especially tend to put even more pressure on ourselves than the average human. But I definitely think that there's something very human about your art. Art in general is supposed to be chaotic and messy and have mistakes. 

Aliyah: I think honestly it's because I'm a Black woman. I've always been one of the only Black women, unfortunately, in most of the spaces I've been forced to be in. My mother told me from the time I could comprehend things that you need to be twice as good because they will only see you as half as good as that. It's like a constant fear that I'm just the token n***** in the space, and they're never going to take me seriously. I really want to be taken seriously in all things in my life. But also, I want you to come here and laugh with me but I want you to know that I'm a fine artist. I do that to myself, but it's a lot, and it's not really what I want to do. It sucks having to feel that way because you're Black. There's so few instances where I saw representation. It was always there, it was just never presented to me, nor was it in the areas where I knew I could access it. Black artists have always been here. We've always been here, you know. I'm not the first Black textile artist. There are so many of us, but it's just we don't really see them. And that's a choice. That's a choice for the people who are allowing things to be seen, and I want to be seen.  It sucks feeling like I have to go 100 miles if everyone else has to go 10 to get to where I want to be, but it's hardwired in me, and I'm trying to learn that as well as learn to relax a little bit.

Nicole: Everything that you just said comes through your personality in a very strong way. I can tell that you are serious and very passionate about your work. I think it’s definitely coming through in the right ways. Going back to your official studio practice, your desire is ‘to explore playful relationships between color and form, Black identity, through all these different mediums.’ Something you said is that sometimes you feel the pressure to be more narrative than other times. Sometimes even your desired vision doesn’t come through and you have to scrap and start over. What are some of the challenges that come along with trying to create that voice and create those interactions, especially when you're using those different mediums? And how have you been able to bring about those real world examinations of being a Black woman and your own personal real life experiences in your work?

Aliyah:  Oh, man, it comes through in a lot of other mediums, but not too much. My rug tufting I don't really think I've like given myself the kind of time and space to explore it, because it's more of a commercial thing for me right now. Hold on, let me actually find one. Because I think [whips out journal] the biggest way I've been able to really express my voice is through these mole skins that I've filled up. I have like three of them. This is my narrative, you know, this is the only way I think I know how to organically express my voice. I'm trying to figure out how I can do that across a lot of other different mediums because it's hard. You know, it's sometimes I feel like I have so much to say, but I'm not really sure if, you know, a rug on the wall is the best way to say it. I also want to really honor what I'm trying to say, instead of just saying everything, you know?

I withhold a lot in all aspects of my whole life. It kind of comes through my textile art. I just kind of systematically drop a breadcrumb here and there and just kind of let it grow slower than I would like. I'm just now like, a crossroads in my practice, where I'm like, I have my very first show coming up and I have to create a whole piece. Friends are gonna be in it. it's gonna be in Savannah and I'm really excited about it. But it's my first time trying to come up with something a little bit more narrative as a self imposed challenge. The pressure to have a narrative is completely self imposed. No one is like saying “Aliyah, tell us about being a Black woman in your art.” I don't know, I feel like it's half my responsibility, because I'm already here doing it and it’s half my want. I'm trying to figure it all out. I don't really have any answers. It's a lot of sampling and doing. We will literally see what a narrative rug from me will look like in the next month or two. it's hard. I have a lot of nights where I just kind of sit there and I'm just thinking about it. I make pieces in my head. But that's probably the wrong thing to do and I should just fucking do it. 

Nicole: No, it's hard. You are a Black woman AND you are a textile artist, like you're in the space already so you're already doing the damn thing. Are you able to separate your personal experiences from your art or is it constantly being woven into your art? Are you bringing in outside inspiration when you're bringing in the narrative? Does that make sense?

Aliyah: Yeah, of course. I'm trying to bring it in just because, well, if I wasn't a visual artist, I think I'd be on a street corner somewhere yelling out my ideas. I just want to express my experience but I would love to also express things like sunshine and rainbows. Unfortunately my experience has been shaped by not only being Black, but by being a woman, being blind in one eye, having immigrant parents, having them divorce on top of that. Like so many different traumatic experiences in hindsight. I want to say stuff, but my personal experience just so happens to be what I'm saying sometimes. I do think it comes through so much more in my collages and pieces where I actually give things title. 

In the last year, I realized that there is a lot of weight that I carry. I think I put a lot of pressure on myself to be a certain kind of thing, for the sake of being accepted by white audiences, because I thought I had to. Now I'm just doing whatever, I'm just doing it. It's been really interesting to see how successful it's been, I wasn't really expecting it, it was just me putting my samples out there. It kind of took on a life of its own. Now I think next year, I'm gonna need some help. I don't think that side of what I'm making will have as much narrative in the meantime unless I'm like putting on a show, you know, like, the nature of being a Black woman has given me a nature of duality. On one hand, I have a lot of fine artwork in my head that I want to make, and I want to talk about being Black, I want to talk about being blind, I want to talk about all these different things, and I want to create work that's worthy. I also want to make money. I also really want to do what I love, and have that outlet for the other side of me who just wants to play with color, and wants to be free. I never want to make it seem like I don't like making Black art because that's the first furthest thing from the truth in all honesty, it’s at the forefront of my mind, no matter what I'm doing. And this has just been like a really fun, interesting new medium that I'm exploring alongside and it's like, I have something else in my toolkit. I'm hoping that a little bit of my narrative comes through my abstract work, but I won't sit here and pretend that like, I'm intending for it to you know, I think it just kind of comes when you understand me and in the context of who I am as an artist, as a person.

I'm hoping for people to just understand that I am kind of in my own world, just making and having fun and I'm throwing up serious work alongside not serious work. I have a lot of different aspects or a lot of different facets to my personality. I hope that's coherent. Like I really hope that makes sense.

Nicole: 100% does. I really appreciate everything you said. I think something that has definitely been a topic of conversation in the last year is how because we've all been on our phones and everything's been awful, we're so addicted to trauma porn. I applaud you for being like yes, I have weight on my shoulders, like yes, I want to yell but you also look at these really awesome colors and neat lines and look how I did it. I really appreciate you the way that you said that.

Aliyah: Thank you. I think, I don't know, I'm sad that a lot of Black artists feel like they have to contribute to making work about very heavy stuff if they don't want to. I don't want to right now, I'm actively on the verge of a depression from the past year, I'm really trying not to make work that would make me cry right now. I don't want to contribute to that. I think the Internet has kind of made you or some artists believe that they have to jump on every trend of like, perhaps sometimes drawing a portrait of someone who just died. Or perhaps like really, you know, capitalizing on the fact that this topic is being talked about right now and creating work responding to that. It sometimes feels like a call and response with the internet involved. And I just, I'm not taking the call, like, my phone is on mute. Sorry, babe.

I'm going to pop out at some point with a huge collection of all Michelangelo style work capturing the trauma that I've been experiencing specifically from this past year, right now. I'm not doing it, I'm gonna sit on it for a while. I'm going to think about it for a couple years and then I'm going to come back when I'm ready. Because It's too much. We're all talking about it right now. It's a lot like the summer where it was Black Lives Matter spirit week for some people, like it was a lot for me, you know, people who used to call me a n****** on their Instagram saying, “here's what you can do to be a better ally”. And they're like, “I'm listening and learning”, but the only thing I want them to listen to is me yell. It's a lot. This scene, all these waves of change happen on a rectangle, and seeing how disconnected it is from the outside world and the people that know and the things that you know to be true about each other and everyone’s behavior. It’s just been a lot. It's been so much for me and I think I have been a lot less personal on my Instagram lately. Because I'm just kind of here. I'm going through it in private. I'm not trying to bring that to the digital space sometimes, you know,

Nicole: Yeah, I think that's okay. That's so okay.

Aliyah: A lot.

Nicole: Right when we hopped on the phone, I think you said it right, we're all hitting a wall of quarantine. It's getting to be way too much. We're all itching to break free but we can't and we know we can't. I think creating art for the sake of creating something is important if it's going to cause you joy, because that joy is going to be received by your audience. 

Aliyah: We're on a hunt for joy here. The need for joy, I think is paramount. I'm glad that's coming across, I think more than anything.  It's sad, like, knowing how much we're all suffering right now. And I just don't know, I'm glad that a little bit of color is doing wonders for some people. It's like really warming my heart. 

Nicole: I think it's amazing and keep doing it because I think you're doing the right things. I want to go back to what you said about your personal experience, in the spaces that you were in or in the textile courses you were taking, you found that you were one of the only Black women. How in the medium of textile have you been able to kind of carve out your own space as an artist? How have you seen textile kind of take off this year (the craft vs. art debate)?

Aliyah: Instagram is a visual kind of app. There was a lot of space and a lot of room for people making art to grow. I was like, “oh, it'll always be there. I don't really give a shit. I'm trying to work in the ‘real world’. Right?” In 2018ish, I saw weaving really have a resurgence online. This corresponded with my textile program fully doubling from the time that I started to when I graduated. There were so many more people in it and I was like, “this is amazing.” People are really finding a new outlet because it was coming from a couple of different places, people who were not interested in the commercial aspects of fashion, or people who were not really interested in, I guess the commercial aspects of, like, illustrating, or you know, something like that. This was like a different way of making. I am, on one hand, so grateful that because of apps like Instagram, people are able to find out what textile art is, they're able to figure out these techniques are very doable. You can really do anything that I'm doing, if you research enough and you do a lot of trial and error. 

But the only part that I get a little bit wary of is the separation. I'm trying to make sure I'm never gate-keeping anything, because what's the last thing I would want to do to someone who's trying to come into this craft, but I also want people to understand you can be an artist and take yourself seriously, but it all comes with intention. I think ‘craft’ is one of those weird gray areas where it's for everyone but also if you want to you can really take it to the next level. But, it takes a certain amount of intention and a certain amount of research. I don't want to like toot my own horn for like getting a fucking BFA, like it means nothing. But I actually, in my spare time, put a lot of effort and energy into researching, into looking for materials. I do like learning. I have the desire to do that. I think that really informs how I make and what I'm making. So when you're coming into a space where you are, you know, using the same kind of materials and tools and you're doing the same kind of things - like people who figured out how to do it on Tik Tok - I think there's a different kind of playing field. It's like all very new. I think the only time I ever feel slightly resentful of the fact that it's a newer thing on the internet because of the pandemic, but when people just straight up ask, “what yarn do you use? Where do you get all your stuff? How do you do this? Like, can you tell me how you did the gradient?” And it's like, as an artist, I don't ask someone? I don't know, I feel like I don't ask people that when I'm with my colleagues. I forget that the internet is a very different space. Yeah. I think it's just like a reminder of like, “oh, wow, this is like a different kind of space for people to learn something new other than, you know, an institution.” I think that I get kind of wary of that, because I'm very, well I'm a Pisces, and I'm an only child, so I'm always so private. It's just like a weird meeting. I really don't ever need to be bitchy or like, weird about it when people are like asking me for tips or asking me for advice or like how to get into it. But the artist side of me is so protective of, like, ‘my status’ and how I'm doing things that I think I just feel a little weird sometimes. You know?

It's the craft versus art debate. I certainly believe that craft and art are two different things. But you know, craft is art, you know, art is craft, they're two of the same things. It's just different intentions. And I just always feel that what I'm doing is art. I'm doing fine art. I don't ever want to be associated with craft when someone's saying it in a condescending kind of way. Especially brown makers, it's been us doing crafts for decades, you know? People around the world have been making weavings and making rugs for decades and it's usually like “women's work”. It's usually indigenous “women's work”. I only ever have strong feelings about the art versus craft debate because of the implications. I guess because of the ‘It's not art society’ that white people have kind of created for us. and like, you know, the art world, They don't value craft as much. I want my work to scream value. I think that being categorized as craft sometimes only irks me because it reminds me of like, you know, someone trying to downgrade like the worth of your work.

Nicole: Yeah, totally.

Nicole: I think there's something to say, especially in a medium where you said this earlier, you are responsible for every part of it, you are responsible for every stage, for every tuft. That's kind of heavy, like, everyone, slow down. I know, you're excited, but like, slow down, take a step back. 

Aliyah: One of the things that I really revolutionized is how I'm viewing myself and how I'm making in terms of where I am in my practice, because I think this is like my sixth or seventh year calling myself an artist and loving it. There's your knowledge, it's kind of like a hill, and then there is this huge dip and then you kind of level out. It's like your taste level is somewhere and you want to make work at that taste level. But it takes so much time and so much effort to get there. So much research, and it takes years to get to the level that you're trying to attain. It's like the taste level gap or something. People tend to just jump into things. And they'll be like, “Oh, I want to do it just like that” without realizing there's like a mountain of years and years of work that went into that. I think realizing I'm still in the middle of where I want to be right here. I'm like, slowly going. And it's just, I don't know, like I I hope everyone understands, like listening to this, but like, there's a lot that goes into it. There's so much that goes into your work. 

I hope everyone gives themselves the time and realizes like, it's going to take years. It really relieved a lot of pressure for me personally, just knowing that every beautiful thing you see and every finished product, and every masterpiece, is probably 20 years of work. You experience so many failures, like trials and errors to come to that moment. 

Nicole: Yeah, it takes so much. Obviously we're able to portray false narratives about ourselves online anyway, but I think it's one of those things where people need to slow down and recognize that if it was easy, if it was easy to do, then everyone would do it. But there's a reason why we don't see it everywhere. And there's a reason why it's just now becoming popular, because people are now having the time to, like, sit with it. And it sounds exciting, but I think people get excited. 

Aliyah: And I get excited. I think it's so cool that people are excited. I just don't want excitement to lead to disappointment when you're not making the kind of progress that you think you should be making. It took me so long to even be comfortable putting my work online, let alone, you know, doing what I'm doing now. I wish that it was a different time, that the pandemic wasn't going on so we can all just comfort each other in person because especially when you're online, it's so lonely. You're looking at what looks like everyone else's life, but it's just like, this weird reflection. And it's just not the same as like, rallying together and seeing people's failures in person and seeing people's like, their blind craftsmanship and like seeing like all their bad days, I wish things were different. I wish!

Nicole: I wish they were too. I I would like to think that we're so close, I don't want to get hopeful, just take it by the day. But yeah, we'll see. Well, on a brighter note, you did a really cool collaboration with Bamboo and Where Are The Black Designers? That was really freaking cool.

Aliyah: That was cool. That was wild. For me. I was so confused. Because I'm totally not a graphic designer. I'm a surface designer. Sometimes I think my pattern design portfolio is so far away from who I am now that I was so nervous to do the Bamboo thing, because I was like, ”what the hell am I gonna do?” I still feel like I've been really nonchalant about it… but it’s like the coolest thing that’s ever happened to me. Lowkey.